You must rerally hate public employees, Troy, which includes my wife (she's a federal virological disease research scientist) and me (community college adjunct faculty). 401Ks are a scam, which diminish in value due to their reliance on mutual funds and excessive fees.

I guess 401Ks are great, if you're a broker who lives by handling other people's money...

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2012/07/07/the-401k-scam/

So I must hate state employees because they should be in the same system everyone else is in? Ok I guess I do. I am in a 401k and it has outperformed inflation every year which means I am ahead of what I would have been if I buried it in a mattress. Btw where do you think IPERS invests the money we taxpayers are forced to contribute on your behalf. Of course you like government pension because if it doesn't make enough to cover your entitlement the taxpayer has to make it up. Greece shows what a great system state pensions are.

I love how you whine like a victim: "the money we taxpayers are forced to contribute on your behalf." Great for your 401K, but keep your hands off our TIAA/CREF and FERS. We're doing what what we've been told to: contributing to our own retirement in a system offered by the employer. Of course, you seem to forget my wife has been on a federal pay freeze for two years, and we have to pay more as Wellmark increases its premiums. Sorry if those facts confound your ill-founded resentment. Sorry if my wife does scientific research and I teach because we love our jobs and colleagues: I guess we're supposed to be purely selfish and money-grubbing by thinking only about pay, and not career satisfaction and social utility.

I hear a lot of righties say, "If you don't like your job, quit and get another one." If you're so jealous of IPERS, why do you insist on tearing down state employees by destroying their pension system? Quit your current job and apply for a state job.

@Jeff, if a person has to hate State employees to want them to have to pay their fair share like the rest of us, then I am a hater...I am whatever it takes to see people pay their share. I don't see why working for the state...working for the tax payers...would afford a person special status, or special heath care. My family is as deserving of special treatment as anyone's...

Jim, you have a very arbitrary, subjective view of "pay their share." Employee compensation, whether in the private or pubklic sectors, is a package which includes base pay and benefits such as health insurance and retirement plans. State employees do pay their "fair share" through the work they do as part of a contract between them and the state.

Part of this is control: folks like you like to think you can control what public employees earn and what their benefits are. And, you can drive on public roads and rely on an educated populace thanks to public employees, not to mention enjoy police and fire protection. I will also defend human services: unless you, like me, have worked with people who have intellectual disabilities, then you have no idea how many folks rely on public assistance to live the fullest lives that they can.

You define "fair share" purely on the basis of dollars and conditioned resentment, Jim, and seem to have absolutely no idea of the value provided to you by public employees.

Billy, Americans are paying a lower portion of their incomes to taxes than they did during the 1950s. The top rate used to be 70%: what is it now, 28%? We can also raise the rates on capital gains: it's insane that Warren Buffett pays a lower percentage of income to federal taxes than does his secretary.

We don't need to stick your kids with the bills, Billy, we can just admit the GW Bush tax cuts were counterproductive, that neoconservatism is wrong and a scam, and pay more taxes.

Rates were higher but revenue was actually lower do some research on the Laffer curve. There is a point where tax rates become counterproductive if you are trying to maximize revenue.

http://www.aei-ideas.org/2012/04/why-we-cant-go-back-to-sky-high-1950s-tax-rates/

I see you consider my remark politically incorrect, James. Did you bother to read my link, or the link it contains to the Demos report?

I didn't think so...

That's what taxpayers do, James - subsidize the government and its employees.

Nor should you, I just think the system should be changed for future state employees to a plan in which retirement dollars are paid today and future generations are not stuck with debt incurred today.

"I just want to eliminate state funded pensions like every other employer has done."

Troy, those pensions are part of a contract the state has made with its employees. What does it say about capitalism if, as you seem to assert, an employer is free to (pick your verb) break, abrogate or violate a contract at his or her discretion?

Troy, wealth has been redistributed upwards in this society, in large part because unions are being broken and benefits taken away from workers who have earned those benefits. I cannot reconcile myself to something which I find so deeply wrong and unjust.

And, look at how you want everyone to be "the same" when it comes to retirement benefits. Are you a closet "socialist!?"

No, the current pensioners would get what they are entitled to now. We just wouldn't have it for new employees. The currrent pensioners could be bought out for the value of the pension today. I guess if you consider a closet socialist one who thinks retirement money should be paid to the employee now and is his or hers to do with as they see fit then yes I am a proud closet socialist. I seriously doubt though that this qualifies even in your own mind as socialism.

So you would like to see wealth redistributed like the European countries who are in worse financial shape than we are?

Troy, read Paul Krugman's work sometime. He makes a very compelling case that the austerity policies European countries are being forced to adopt, primarily at the behest of German chancellor Angela Merkel, are destructive and will make the recession worse. And, look at how well "trickle-down" economics has worked in this country. Trickle-down economics only enriches people at the top of the society, those policies do not produce general prosperity.

Even Reagan agree to tax increases when he saw what tax cuts did to the economy...

I prefer Milton Friedman. Krugman ranks right up there with John Maynard Keynes and his failed ideas.

"Well first of all, tell me: Is there some society you know that doesn’t run on greed? You think Russia doesn’t run on greed? You think China doesn’t run on greed? What is greed? Of course, none of us are greedy, it’s only the other fellow who’s greedy. The world runs on individuals pursuing their separate interests. The great achievements of civilization have not come from government bureaus. Einstein didn’t construct his theory under order from a bureaucrat. Henry Ford didn’t revolutionize the automobile industry that way. In the only cases in which the masses have escaped from the kind of grinding poverty you’re talking about, the only cases in recorded history, are where they have had capitalism and largely free trade. If you want to know where the masses are worse off, worst off, it’s exactly in the kinds of societies that depart from that. So that the record of history is absolutely crystal clear, that there is no alternative way so far discovered of improving the lot of the ordinary people that can hold a candle to the productive activities that are unleashed by the free-enterprise system" Milton Friedman

Jeff besides that what does this have to do with paying more for your healthcare? I personally think you should pay some percentage of your healthcare cost. That way when it goes up because of Obamacare you get to pay that increase just like the rest of us.

So exactly how is Greece supposed to pay those benefits since you believe that those austerity policies are making the economy worse. The other countries should just pay Greece's welfare and retirement benefits for its people? Let their politicians just continue to rack up the debt and force all other countries to cover for them. Sorry but I personally don't like the idea of paying for my neighbors stupidity.

What's funny, Troy, is that Germany has the strongest economy in Europe, and also some of the most generous social welfare programs. Ditto the Scandinavian countries.

I'll take Krugman and Keynes over Friedman any day: we'll just have to agree to disagree. And the American Enterprise Institute!? Really!? Come on, just doing a straight comparison without considering the size of the American economy just won't fly: if we look at federal tax revenue as a percentage of GDP, we're below where we were in the Fifties. And cutting taxes did NOTHING to spur economic growth: a more relevant comparison is with Bill Clinton's first term, where he increased taxes to address the budget deficit (he didn't want to), which set the stage for the prosperous 1990s.

Better not say Keynes has "failed ideas" when Friedman's monetarism has produced sky-high deficits and the worst income and wealth inequality since the turn of the 20th century. And calling public employees "wards of the state" who "feed at the public trough" is an insult, you ingrate! There you go saying your sweat smells sweet again...

But you just said Merkel's policies were destroying Europe. then you say she has the strongest economy in Europe. So I guess she should continue with the Austerity measures and all of Europe will be as strong as Germany. I now see your point Greece should just print euro's to pay their debtors and pensioners. That way they don't have to stop spending.

Income and wealth inequality? Hmm so we should just take income from those you think make to much and give it to those you think don't make enough. Now I truly understand why we have such a great divide in this country, you think what's yours is yours and what's mine is yours. I get it now, I am not supposed to succeed because it makes you feel like life is unfair. I bet you got a trophy in little league whether you won or lost, didn't you.

BTW sky high deficits are caused by politicians spending to much money, and I am sorry that you feel being a ward of the state feeding at the public trough is insulting I could of sworn earlier you said you enjoyed your job and got satisfaction from it.

You're just not listening, Troy. How on earth can you say Merkel is responsible for Germany's economic strength, which is the product of years of policy and the labor of tens of millions of people!?

Here's where I weird you out: the wealthy are NOTHING without working people. Their capital is worthless without the labor of people like you and me, who actually work and contribute to the society. Their wealth is based on our labor, so they are the ones who have taken the fruits of our labor. But what can I do, since you identify with the oppressor?

Nah Jeff, by your definition I am the oppressor, I have my boot on your neck keeping you down. I didn't risk my wealth, my familys wealth or anything building my business. I am an evil capitalist. You on the other hand are a victim of us greedy people because we want to keep the same percentage of what we earned as you get to keep. I feel so guilty being a "rich" person who makes more than 250K a year. Oh well I am sure if Obama gets what he wants us "rich" people can contribute to your retirement account and health insurance.

I agree, I just want to change the states attitude toward pensions and go to a 401K style plan in which the benefit is paid immediately therefore eliminating the uncertainty for future generations. I don't care if the state's contribution is 3, 5, 10, 15 or 20% just pay it now. The retirement benefit should be paid in todays dollars. The state could budget for it and be done with it. Government is a terrible long term planner as they usually are not held accountable for past mistakes.

You're exactly right, Vanessa. The divisions we're seeing in the American electorate are the work of 30 years of conservative propaganda.

Exactly. Blame the Legislators

Then it's time to increase the top tax rate and increase taxes on capital gains, too, since those can be considered "freebies" for the wealthiest people in this country...

Back to unfair tax practices again are we. I will give you capital gains you can toss it in with regular income but a tax that charges me a higher percentage than you is just stealing from me for your benefit. The tax rate should be the same regardless of income. I pay more if I make more you pay less if you make less. It really is ironic that you want more of my money percentage wise than you are willing to give. But as I stated in an earlier argument with you. When you take enough from me I will shut down my business, bury my gold and join you with my hand out.

I didn't say additional portion, I just said portion. Like most Iowa residents, state employees pay taxes. Since wages and other benefits come from this tax money, state employees pay a portion of their own wages along with insurance.